When you look at successful people, it’s hard not to think fame, fortune, or prosperity are a result of pure talent. Think of Olympic medalists, STEM geniuses who develop earth-shattering technologies, and economists who predict major events. It’s undeniable these are talented people—but University of Pennsylvania psychologist Angela Duckworth has spent years researching what goes into success, and she says talent is not the only factor.

“I think effort counts twice. Sure, talent counts, but I think effort counts twice,” said Angela Duckworth on The Mel Robbins podcast. “To me, skill is kind of barren unless you apply it.”

Duckworth is a prominent American psychologist, academic, and author best known for her research on grit: the concept of passion and perseverance in pursuit of long-term goals. She serves as the Rosa Lee and Egbert Chang professor of psychology at top-ranked UPenn, and cofounded Character Lab, a non-profit focused on science-backed advice for parents and teachers.

You don’t need to be the most talented person in the room. Because as world-renowned psychologist Dr. @Angela Duckworth explains, hard work beats talent. Comment ‘Angela’ and I’ll DM you a link to the full episode! Talent might give you a head start, but it’s perseverance and grit that take you the distance. In this episode of The Mel Robbins Podcast, Dr. Duckworth reveals the real science of success, and why your determination matters far more than what you’re born with. Because talent opens the door. But grit is what gets you through it. ?? “How to Create a Successful Mindset: The Science of Passion and Perseverance.” Listen now or watch the full episode on YouTube – search ‘The Mel Robbins Podcast Angela Duckworth.’

Before her academic career, she was a management consultant at McKinsey & Co. and also taught math and science at public schools in New York City, San Francisco, and Philadelphia. In 2013, she earned a MacArthur Genius Grant—a fellowship providing $800,000 for recipients who show “exceptional creativity” and “promise for important future advances” for her contributions to understanding personality traits related to success.

“Oftentimes, I think that we look at other people, [and say] ‘yeah, they are wildly talented,’ whether it’s in sports or it’s in art or music or business, and we sort of shrug our shoulders and go: ‘Oh, well, they were born with that gift.’”

How Duckworth defines talent

Talent is typically defined as a natural aptitude or skill—but Duckworth defines it differently.

“Talent is the rate at which you improve at something,” she said. “When you try [and] you’re a really talented person, you improve a lot for every hour of practice.”

On the other hand, if you’re a less talented person, you improve “only a very little bit” with every hour of practice, she added, giving the example of being talented at psychology herself, but very “untalented” at subjects like history, politics, and current events.

“There is no shame or fear in acknowledging that we may be more talented at some things than others,” Duckworth said.

What others say about the relationship between talent and success

Tim Tebow, one of the most celebrated college athletes in University of Florida’s history, is also a proponent of hard work over talent.

“Hard work can beat talent when talent doesn’t work as hard,” the Heisman Trophy winner and former Denver Broncos quarterback said. “I’ve held onto [that sentiment] because it’s something that motivated me—knowing that when I show up onto a court, onto a field, onto a diamond, to a classroom, I’m not always going to be the most talented.”

“Most of the time I’m not,” he continued. “But if you give me enough time, enough opportunities, then hard work can beat talent when talent doesn’t work as hard.” Tebow also pursued a career in minor league baseball and worked as a television broadcaster for SEC Network and ESPN, and was inducted in the College Football Hall of Fame in 2023.

Cristiano Ronaldo, one of the most accomplished footballers in history, also shares this sentiment.

“Talent without work is nothing,” said Ronaldo, who’s won several individual and team awards for his success, including five Ballon d’Or trophies as the best player in the world.

Outside of sports, prolific author Stephen King, famous for his novels like The Shining, It, and Carrie, said talent is worth nothing without hard work.

“Talent is cheaper than table salt,” he said. “What separates the talented individual from the successful one is a lot of hard work.”